A live chat focusing on science in the kitchen
Editor’s note: The transcript of the chat, in its entirety, is posted below. Enjoy!
As luck would have it, there are scientists in the Culinate kitchen. And boy, can they cook.
On Tuesday, July 14, at noon PT/3 p.m. ET, we’ll host a live one-hour chat with Culinate columnists Matthew Amster-Burton and Hank Sawtelle. The unofficial topic is “science in the kitchen,” but the conversation will likely veer from a discussion of sous vide at home (one of Hank’s passions) to Thai food (one of Matthew’s) and lots more in between.
Heat is just one topic that might be covered on Tuesday.
Sign up below if you’d like to receive a reminder of the event.
Hank and Matthew will compare notes for a while, then they’ll take a few questions from the crowd (all of us).
(If you’d like to send a question to Hank in advance, just to get the conversation going, email him at askhank@culinate.com.)
What qualifies these two to talk about science in the kitchen? Well, Hank has a degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Matthew used to teach biology.
Plus, did we mention that they’re both excellent cooks?
Don’t miss this opportunity to join the chat. (But if you do miss it, don’t worry; we’ll keep the transcript easy to find on the site.)
See you Tuesday!
| Hank and Matthew on Science in the Kitchen | (07/14/2009) |
| 11:39 | Kim C.: The chat will begin in 20 minutes. See you then! |
| 12:00 | Kim C.:
Welcome, all, to a conversation with two Culinate columnists, Matthew Amster-Burton (aka Mamster), and Hank Sawtelle. The format of the chat is informal, so if you have a question for either or both Hank and Mamster, please send it our way. The topic to start is science in the kitchen (although we might veer off in other directions, eventually). Hank, you have a degree from MIT and Matthew, you used to teach biology. So I’m wondering, was it your love of food that got you into the kitchen — or your love of science? Hank, you first. |
| 12:01 | Hank: I've always been a scientist, but I grew to appreciate food (and cooking) more as I grew up. It was natural that I'd want to focus on the science. The kitchen is a full blown science lab that we all have in our homes after all.
|
| 12:02 | Kim C.: Mamster, how about you? |
| 12:02 | mamster: In my case, I'd say I got interested in both cooking and science because they offer the opportunity to take an interest and really beat it to death. |
| 12:02 | mamster: I mean, not literally. |
| 12:03 | mamster: Like, cooking is fun because you can play with it your whole life and never exhaust more than your one little corner. |
| 12:03 | Kim C.: True, Mamster! Never dull.
Hank, when you say "full blown science lab," you make me wonder if you've ever really blown anything up in the kitchen. You know, a kitchen disaster? |
| 12:05 | Kim C.: Mamster, that goes for you too. How often do you FAIL as a cook? |
| 12:05 | mamster: All the time! |
| 12:05 | Hank: Not yet, although recently in Germany an amateur apparently blew his hands off trying to do some molecular gastronomy tricks with liquid nitrogen (details are sketchy) |
| 12:05 | Kim C.: OK, Hank, but what about just everyday cooking failures? Ever have those?
|
| 12:06 | mamster: I just turned in my next Unexplained Bacon column, in which I admit that I once set my kitchen on fire making French fries and imploring readers not to be like me. |
| 12:07 | Hank: Oh sure. I am kind of a perfectionist though so it upsets me when I fail. It usually motivates me to figure out how to do it right though. I set the fire alarm off quite a bit :) |
| 12:07 | mamster: One thing I like better about cooking than lab science is that science experiments fail more often than not. |
| 12:07 | Hank: you can eat the mistakes, which is nice |
| 12:07 | mamster: Whereas I only really screw up dinner once ever couple of weeks. :) |
| 12:08 | mamster: Yeah, the smoke alarm drives me nuts. Couldn't they make those things quieter and less apt to respond to burning things? |
| 12:08 | Kim C.: Hank, we wanted to talk sous vide a little -- one of your passions. My big question: is it right for the home cook? |
| 12:08 | mamster: Seriously, though, a chef friend of mine gave me a smoke alarm tip, which is to tape a plastic grocery bag over it when you're cooking. |
| 12:08 | [Comment From Gunther ]
I'd like to know if you guys ever go by recipes like step for step, or whether it's mostly mix-and-match or experimental. |
| 12:08 | mamster: You won't forget to take it off later, because there's an ugly bag hanging from your ceiling. |
| 12:09 | mamster: Hey, Gunther. I rarely follow recipes as written. |
| 12:10 | Hank: Kim, sous-vide is probably not right for everyone - it's not rustic - but it's amazing what it can do texturally. I've converted every enthusiastic cook I've tried it on so far. |
| 12:10 | Hank: one of my goals in life is to bring sous-vide to the masses |
| 12:10 | mamster: Sorry, didn't mean to bury the sous vide lede. Hank, consider me the masses. |
| 12:11 | Hank: mamster, you attended a chef demo up in seattle, right? what did you think? did they do a good job of selling it? |
| 12:11 | mamster: We should probably define sous vide, and then you should tell me how to try it with minimal expense. |
| 12:11 | mamster: Well, I think they did a good job of selling it to professional cooks, since we used really expensive equipment. |
| 12:12 | mamster: The goal of the demo was to introduce food writers to sous vide so they would recognize it and write about it more accurately, but it didn't really teach me how to do it at home unless I want to buy a giant vacuum sealer and immersion circulator. |
| 12:13 | Hank: aha. I'm doing it at home for a $130 investment (digital temp controller). I already had the vacuum sealer ($100ish) and dumb rice cooker ($50ish). But really all of that is optional for getting started. |
| 12:13 | mamster: I have a rice cooker. Would my $8 vacuum sealer work? |
| 12:13 | Hank: there is a pretty good intro for begineers (not written by me) here |
| 12:14 | Hank: beginners, i meant |
| 12:14 | mamster: I like that this article has a section entitled
Pathogens of Interest |
| 12:14 | Kim C.: (Hank's blog about sous vide is here.) |
| 12:14 | mamster: Wow, that came out much larger than I intended! |
| 12:14 | Hank: the usual suspects? |
| 12:15 | mamster: Okay, I want you to round up listeria, salmonella, and staph, get 'em in here for questioning. |
| 12:15 | mamster: So, say I wanted to take my first step in sous vide. What should I cook first and how? Assume I'll eat anything. (Because I will!) |
| 12:16 | Hank: foodborne illness is definitely the biggest potential issue with sous-vide. but it's an issue with any kind of cooking. you just have to be careful |
| 12:16 | Kim C.: Backing up a sec … you simply seal the food in a plastic bag and simmer it for a long time in a rice cooker? Does that work? |
| 12:18 | Hank: Kim it's not a simmer. Let me explain since it's probably new to a lot of folks. sous vide means "under vacuum," and the idea is that you seal the food in a bag with very little air, and then (usually) cook it at a relatively low temp (often for a long time) in a temperature-controlled water bath. The main benefits are 1) the food stays moist, 2) impossible to overcook, and 3) perfect "doneness" in every bite of food. |
| 12:19 | Kim C.: What have you found is your favorite thing to prepare this way? |
| 12:20 | Hank: mamster, the easiest way to start is probably steak. Alton Brown did this on his show a few years ago. Get a big pot of water and a thermometer and heat it on your stove to 130F. Adjust the heat so the water stays at or very close to 130. Take a thick steak, season it, and put it in a zip top bag. squeeze out as much air as possible and cook it in the 130F bath for an hour or so. Every bite will be perfectly medium-rare. |
| 12:20 | mamster: I tend to start everything with steak anyway. |
| 12:21 | mamster: Could I sear it after I sous-vide it? |
| 12:21 | Hank: kim, my favorites are tough cuts of meat, such as short ribs. I cook them for 3 days at 130F, and the result is meltingly tender (think filet mignon) but incredibly beefy flavor (think grass-fed flank steak) |
| 12:22 | Hank: mamster - yes, I ofter sear briefly in a screaming hot cast-iron skillet. |
| 12:22 | Hank: yes, sear briefly in a screaming hot cast iron skillet if desired |
| 12:23 | Hank: Getting back to gunther's question, I rarely follow recipes step by step except for baking, where improvisation can lead to disaster |
| 12:23 | mamster: Is it hard to get a stove to hold a constant low temperature? |
| 12:24 | mamster: Hank, I'm surprised to hear you say that. I mess with baking recipes all the time. |
| 12:24 | mamster: Baking doesn't strike me as fundamentally different from any other kind of cooking except you don't get to play with knives as much. |
| 12:24 | Hank: i mess with them eventually, but rarely the first time on a thing i've never baked. although Ruhlman's ratio book has freed me from the shackles somewhat. |
| 12:25 | Hank: i'm frustrated that there aren't more baking recipes out there with weight measures. mamster I know you're a fan of the kitchen scale too. I think it's the single biggest step towards embracing science in the kitchen. |
| 12:26 | [Comment From Linear Girl ]
So what happens to the food, scientifically speaking, when cooked in a vacuum? I use a pressure cooker often so I'm accustomed to the other end of the spectrum. |
| 12:26 | mamster: A pastry chef friend of mine told me a terrible joke, which I will now inflict on you. How do you tell which are the pastry chef's knives? They're the ones that cut the same upside-down or right-side-up. |
| 12:28 | mamster: One thing that happens with meat is that enzymes go to work tenderizing the meat as it comes up to temperature. |
| 12:28 | Hank: LG, food in a mild vacuum cooks pretty much the same as at normal pressure. The biggest issue is that anaerobic pathogens (especially clostridium botulinum) can grow in the oxygen-free environment, so temperatures and times have to be managed carefully. Other than that, allegedly vacuum "opens up" meat fibers so they take on marinades more easily, but I'm skeptical. |
| 12:28 | mamster: You can achieve a similar effect with steak by roasting it in a low oven and then finishing it on the stove. |
| 12:29 | mamster: So then why the vacuum sealer, Hank? Is it just for packaging convenience? |
| 12:29 | Hank: yes, I've adopted that method with prime rib years ago (thanks again to Alton Brown) |
| 12:29 | [Comment From Gunther ]
My mother does "vacuum" marinated steaks, but then prepares them as normal, so you're not the only one who's heard about the opening up. |
| 12:30 | [Comment From siouxsie ]
How do you manage to prevent growing botulism in your steak? I think you have to get to 170 deg to kill that, right? |
| 12:30 | Hank: mamster, the benefit of the vacuum is getting the air out of the bag so the food is in direct contact with the flavorings in the bag, and right up against the water (cooking medium) for efficient heat transfer. Also you take aerobic pathogens out of the game. |
| 12:31 | mamster: Well, the short answer to that, siouxsie, is that you won't grow enough botulism in an hour to hurt anyone. As for those three-day short ribs, good question. |
| 12:31 | mamster: A question Hank will answer when he gets back from the ER. |
| 12:32 | Hank: siouxsie, the idea is not to kill botulism, but to keep the food out of the temperature zone at which the spores (if present) would become active and grow. |
| 12:32 | Kim C.: I see a future Ask Hank column -- or two or three.
Let's switch it up to a discussion of one of Mamster's passions: Asian cooking -- maybe Thai especially? Mamster, you improvise these dishes all the time? |
| 12:33 | Hank: The three-day short ribs are FDA approved because they are at 130F for more than 112 minutes. That kills off most aerobic bacteria, and botulism spores won't wake up (too hot). |
| 12:34 | Kim C.: FDA approved? Whew.
Any tips for those of us who love Thai takeout but haven't cooked it at home much? |
| 12:34 | [Comment From siouxsie ]
did you ever see the monte python skit regarding the salmon mousse? i suspect my sous vide experiments could "end" the same way. need more info! |
| 12:34 | mamster: The great thing about Thai food is that it has a relatively simple vernacular, meaning if you have fish sauce, green chiles, and a lime on hand, you're in business. |
| 12:36 | Hank: mamster, how crazy would it be to make one's own nam pla (fish sauce)? I know it would be stinky and take a year, but is it completely impossible for a normal person? As a fermentation nerd I've always been curious. |
| 12:36 | mamster: That's just the kind of simple home cooking I'm talking about, Hank.
|
| 12:36 | [Comment From siouxsie ]
thanks! better read that carefully. |
| 12:36 | mamster: Okay, not really. |
| 12:36 | [Comment From patently ridiculous ]
Have either of you ever tried baking eggs, and if so, how did that turn out? |
| 12:37 | [Comment From Gunther ]
I can see the book. "From sous-chef to sous-vide chef in 5 easy steps and 3 long days" |
| 12:37 | Hank: patently (great name btw, I used to be a patent attorney), the short answer is yes, and they are spectacular. I bake them often in the shell (another Alton Brown idea - I am sensing a pattern) |
| 12:37 | mamster: I think it would be pretty hard to make your own fish sauce like the kind you get at the supermarket. Homemade fermented fish paste (pla raa) is common in northeast Thailand and Laos...as is liver fluke from eating it. |
| 12:38 | [Comment From siouxsie ]
how do you make thai iced tea? |
| 12:39 | mamster: Ah, excellent question. |
| 12:39 | [Comment From Gunther ]
Bake them in the shell? Now *I* need more info :) |
| 12:39 | mamster: You start with ten pounds of freshly caught fish. Sorry. Actually, Thai iced tea is usually made with a commercial powdered tea mix from Thailand. |
| 12:40 | mamster: It contains black tea and spices.
|
| 12:40 | Kim C.: Have you bought the mix here? |
| 12:40 | mamster: So you brew up some of that with sugar, and then strain it and add ice and evaporated milk. |
| 12:41 | mamster: I've bought the mix here, yeah; it's sold on the tea aisle of southeast Asian groceries. |
| 12:41 | mamster: I think recreating it from scratch with better quality tea would be an interesting project. I know there's star anise and cinnamon in there; not sure what else. |
| 12:41 | Hank: gunther - baked eggs in the shell are a great alternative to hard boiled. they come out creamy and tender becuase the heat transfer is much less intense. put them in a cold oven, set it to 325 and let them go for 30 minutes (26 is actually perfect in my oven). then dunk immediately in ice water. of course, now I do them sous-vide . . . |
| 12:42 | mamster: Wow, never tried that. I love baked eggs out of the shell. |
| 12:43 | Kim C.: Must…get…toaster…oven… |
| 12:44 | mamster: Or you could use your regular oven and cook three dozen eggs at a time. |
| 12:44 | Kim C.: That *would* be efficient. |
| 12:45 | Hank: you can also steam eggs. anything's better than boiling them really. |
| 12:45 | [Comment From Arkin710 ]
Whats the best pan and temperature to fry an over-easy egg? Mine always stick. |
| 12:45 | mamster: Are you averse to teflon? That's really going to be the least sticky. |
| 12:46 | mamster: The next best choice is well-seasoned carbon steel. |
| 12:46 | Hank: arkin, by far the best pan is a small non-stick pan. even the pros use them for fried eggs. keep the temp medium to medium low |
| 12:46 | Kim C.: Bittman did a pasta article awhile back where he advocated more sauce, less pasta (more veg, really). He's consistent. |
| 12:46 | mamster: Let me invert the question, though, and ask about sunny-side up eggs. |
| 12:46 | mamster: Mine are always slightly overcooked on the bottom by the time the while finishes cooking on top. Ideas? |
| 12:47 | Hank: basting! put a teaspoon or so of water in the pan and cover it with a lid - the top steams |
| 12:47 | Hank: the white sets before the yolk (at a lower temp) |
| 12:48 | mamster: Oh, excellent. I do cover the pan but I've never put water in. |
| 12:48 | [Comment From siouxsie ]
shouldn't there be a whole cook book on eggs? is there one? eggs are the most mystifying things to prepare. a million ways to screw them up. |
| 12:48 | Hank: there are egg books. I don't have any. |
| 12:49 | Kim C.: siouzxie, we need an egg *website* |
| 12:50 | Kim C.: What about science in the kitchen … with kids. Any thoughts? |
| 12:50 | mamster: I think there's an egg cookbook called The Good Egg. |
| 12:50 | Hank: eggs are amazing. probably the most important ingredient in the kitchen, if you think about all the different things the whites and yolks can do. |
| 12:51 | mamster: Baking soda and vinegar can keep a kid entertained for days.
|
| 12:51 | Hank: my kid is 4 and just wants to taste/eat all of the ingredients. which is fine. she is fascinated with all my gadgets. the other day I was sauteing something and she said "Daddy, why are you cooking that not-sous-vide?" So yeah, I might have a problem |
| 12:52 | mamster: Iris and I did an experiment to determine whether salt or sugar is more soluble in water.
|
| 12:52 | Hank: mamster -great idea. can't wait to try that (when mom's not home) |
| 12:52 | mamster: Which is something I remember doing in science class in grade school. |
| 12:53 | Hank: hmmm Sammy is getting into science experiments (will this toy float, etc.) I need to figure out how to work that into the kitchen
|
| 12:53 | [Comment From Gunther ]
Will his toy float in this soup... |
| 12:53 | Hank: "will this ipod float" was not a popular one btw |
| 12:54 | mamster: Make lines on the boat and float it in liquids with different densities. |
| 12:54 | Kim C.: I'm trying to get my teens to make bubble tea at home! |
| 12:55 | [Comment From Gunther ]
Just don't get him into "Will it Blend", or you're done |
| 12:55 | mamster: Bubble tea is a great idea. |
| 12:55 | Hank: here's a pretty good baking science article on Culinate for those wanting to delve deeper into kitchen science. |
| 12:56 | mamster: Thinking about the bubbles going up the straw reminds me that there was once a really great Straight Dope column about the physics of slurping spaghetti. |
| 12:56 | mamster: WHich is ounce of those things that sounds like an easy problem but is very hard, along with "why does the shower curtain blow inwards?" |
| 12:56 | Hank: what are the bubbles made out of? tapioca? |
| 12:56 | mamster: I think it's not tapioca. |
| 12:57 | mamster: But I'm checking wikipedia. |
| 12:57 | Kim C.: Yes I think they are tapioca, but they're bigger than average tapioca.
|
| 12:57 | Kim C.: Must check Uwajimya for tapioca balls. |
| 12:58 | [Comment From Tara Mataraza Desmond ]
Curses! I missed it! |
| 12:58 | Hank: Tapioca is crazy stuff. if you whiz tapioca flour in a food processor and drizzle in liquid fat (butter, olive oil, whatever) - the tapioca coats the fat droplets and you get powdered (dry) fat. sprinkly butter powder on lobster tails, etc. |
| 12:58 | Kim C.: Tara, have a quick question? |
| 12:58 | [Comment From Tara Mataraza Desmond ]
Bubble tea always intrigued me, but things stuck in my straw sort of makes me gag a little. Am i alone? |
| 12:59 | Hank: straw or craw? |
| 12:59 | [Comment From Tara Mataraza Desmond ]
I don't know, Hank. Why not just dunk your lobster in melted butter? Isn't what you're describing the same as that Molly McButter stuff? |
| 12:59 | mamster: I love the drink they make at Moonstruck Chocolate in Portland that has bits of ganache floating in it. |
| 12:59 | Hank: Tara, I can see you're going to be no fun :) |
| 1:00 | [Comment From Tara Mataraza Desmond ]
Science wasn't ever really my forte. |
| 1:00 | mamster: Ha, I haven't thought about Molly McButter in ages. |
| 1:00 | [Comment From Arkin710 ]
Have you ever seen the anti-griddle in action? |
| 1:00 | Hank: I like some of the molecular gastronomy stuff because it's different and wacky in surprising and pleasant ways |
| 1:00 | mamster: Not since her tragic death. |
| 1:01 | mamster: Arkin, I have no idea what an antigriddle is, but I want you to tell me now. |
| 1:01 | mamster: Oh, and then we'd better wrap up, huh? |
| 1:02 | mamster: (I should specify that I am personally pro-griddle, but what other people do with their griddles in private is no concern of mine.) |
| 1:02 | mamster: Awesome, so it's an entirely new way to injure yourself? |
| 1:02 | Hank: it's a freezing-cold surface, popularized by Grant Achatz of Alinea in Chicago, used to freeze things and do weird molecular gastronomy tricks. |
| 1:02 | [Comment From Tara Mataraza Desmond ]
Funny, I worked on Iron Chef America last year and it was jammed with all this molecular gastro hooha. All of us staff members avoided that antigriddle like the plague. No one knew how to use it! |
| 1:03 | Kim C.: Sorry to break up the fun; a full hour has passed in a flash. Next time, more of a discussion of the antigriddle. (Or come back and we'll publish the comments on Culinate.)
Thanks, Hank! Thanks, Mamster! Thanks to all who joined. This was fun. |
| 1:04 | Hank: Thanks everyone! |
| 1:04 | 
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There are 2 comments on this item
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1. by Hank Sawtelle on Jul 14, 2009 at 1:05 PM PDT
Here's some info (marketing hype) about applications of the anti-griddle.
2. by anonymous on Jan 21, 2010 at 12:11 AM PST
Your writing is very elegant, very vivid and lively, I really like you, wish you continued to write
better articles, I will often try to concern, oh!
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